The launch of Mega Man X DiVE Offline is just around the corner, and Bahamut GNN News seized the opportunity to speak to members of the development team. In addition to some insight on the offline version, the interview also treats us to previously unrevealed early designs of RiCO!
You can check out the translated interview after the break! (many thanks to our friend Sonny!)
Yoda: The genesis of Mega Man X DiVE was quite complex. This game marks Capcom Taiwan's inaugural venture into developing original titles. Back then, I was residing in Taiwan and held a deep affinity for the Mega Man series. I took the initiative to connect with the producer of Mega Man in Japan and negotiated with him to make a Mega Man game in Taiwan. After that, I got right to work.
The journey started as a small-scale project in Taiwan, which later extended back to Japan. We got the chance to collaborate with Capcom Japan IPs such as Monster Hunter and Devil May Cry. Our in-house music composer contributed their talent, while Nakayama-sensei, known for their work on Mega Man Zero, provided invaluable insights. This endeavor became a collective effort with the involvement of many. As the online version approached its shutdown, Asada-san, a seasoned producer with a wealth of experience in numerous games, was brought in to oversee the offline version.
Looking back on these last three years, is there any special memories you'd like to share?
Yoda: These three years have been filled with countless special moments. Interacting with players has been a significant highlight. Not just limited to Mega Man fans from Taiwan and Thailand, but from all corners of the world. Their feedback has shown us the immense challenge of managing a game, but it's also a testament to the deep love fans hold for Mega Man. This ignited our determination to carry the Mega Man legacy forward for generations to come, and we're brimming with ideas for new titles. This, without a doubt, stands out as the most memorable part of this experience.
Nowadays, it's common for mobile games to introduce offline content once their service concludes. However, most of these only provide players with reading material and not actual gameplay. The offline version of Mega Man X DiVE is closer to an actual, standalone game. Why?
Asada: Although I don’t know if this is the case in Taiwan, but in Japan, it is true as you said, most of the games after the end of operation will integrate the unfinished stories or launch a collection of portraits. But Mega Man X DiVE is a full-fledged side scrolling action game. Players will use the virtual controller to play the game, which some Japanese and American fans found to be unnatural.
Whether it is an action game, shooting game, or action RPG, it is basically difficult to operate because the fingers block the screen, and Mega Man X DiVE can be enjoyed with a controller through the Steam version, as if they are playing on consoles. Of course, if players can get used to the virtual controller, they can play on their phones whenever, wherever.
Will there be differences between the online and offline versions? Any new content?
Asada: Because this is an offline game, we don’t have a server. That said, we won't have online-based content like PvP, Co-op, Guild, Rankings and Capsules. In the online version, the game had limited seasonal events like for New Years and Christmas, for example. But those only ran for 2 weeks. I believe many players didn't get the chance to experience those events back then, because they probably went on vacation or other commitments. So we decided to make all of these seasonal events playable in the offline version. We hope players can enjoy this content at their own pace.
This game had collaboration content with other Capcom games. Will they be kept for the offline version?
Asada: We did not include Capcom collaboration characters from Monster Hunter, Street Fighter and Devil May Cry. But we did include the original characters that make up for over 120 characters, which is a lot to play with.
When will the game be out? What is the payment method?
Asada: Mega Man X DiVE Offline is a one-time purchas game. You can enjoy all the content after buying it. There will be no additional content. There will only be fixes for bugs if there are any. The game is scheduled to be released on September 1st on iOS, Android and Steam. We have also opened the pre-order for Steam on August 18th.
Asada: We have no plans for that at the moment. Of course, we will see how the game performs. But as of now, we don’t have any plans for DLC or new characters.
Asada: As I said, there is no server for the offline version. Hence players will not be able to keep their progress from the online version. As such, there will be no special rewards. I personally hope players can enjoy the game from scratch once more, and enjoy stages that they missed. They can enjoy collecting and using every character from the online version.
Mizuno-san, your artwork has contributed greatly to the Mega Man series. Do you have any post-production thoughts about Mega Man X DiVE?
Mizuno: I personally really wanted a new title from the X series. But, I am very glad that I got to be at the forefront of X DiVE's production. The best part for me was our ability to expand the character roster because it was a mobile game.
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| (χ-kai- was made as a playable character in Mega Man X DiVE.) |
Mizuno: X has shown up in other games before. But this time he was a fully-playable character. χ-kai- on the other hand, this is his first time joining a game.
There are some Mega Man X DiVE original characters that were not in previous games. What inspired those designs?
Mizuno: Original characters were requested by Yoda-san. As we discussed how each one would look, we focused on expressing their personality and characteristics through their design. There's a reason for every detail.
Additionally, RiCO was the first original character we designed. Designing her in the early stage was rather rough, but also the most memorable character to me. She was originally designed by an in-house Capcom Taiwan artist. She was very cute and charming then, but she lacked a certain Mega Man quality. My first task was to change her to look like a character from Mega Man X. The biggest challenge for me was to strike a balance between a Mega Man X design and a design that's more typical of a mobile game character.
So that's how it was. But it's true - many players reacted positively to RiCO, the game's primary heroine.
Mizuno: That is a big relief. I was worried that fans of Mega Man X and general mobile game players wouldn’t accept her design. I was actually quite confused on how to approach the design at first.
Yoda: At first, we got brutally criticized by hardcore Japanese players (laugh), saying that this kind of character is not Mega Man at all. But they gradually accepted this style.
Mizuno: This is all thanks to Yoda-san. He made everything go smoothly.
Ms jun: When we were recording the character voices, Yoda-san specifically requested that the characters sound lively but not too noisy. It is great to see that the characters are loved by the players.
Mizuno: Previous characters were designed with sprites in mind, so for several of them, they lacked a rear view, images of the soles of their feet, or weapons. There were times that I didn't have any reference, and that was definitely the hardest part. When that happened, we referenced different forms of media where the character might have appeared -- manga, figures and cards for example. We cross-referenced a lot of different areas, and often struggled to decide which design elements worked best with our original drafts.
I am very thankful to have the 3D model designer’s assistance. It was no easy task to translate flat designs into a 3D environment. Thanks to their help, we brought these drawings to life. I am very grateful.
“Recognize” – the theme song to portray the character’s growth
Ms jun you wrote and sang the offline game's exclusive theme song, “Recognize" (jun x KT-G). How did that come about?
jun: Yoda-san was familiar with my previous work, and he invited me to create a theme song. It was originally made for the online version, but we couldn’t realize it in time to due a number of factors. Fortunately, Yoda-san contacted me again, requesting that I make the theme song for the offline version.
Did you include any Mega Man-like elements in the song? What is something unique about this piece?
jun: Yoda-san provided an overall theme for the song, and I developed it based on his direction. Yoda-san's vision for the piece was very easy to understand, and it fit in well with the game's setting. My inspiration flowed naturally from that.
KT-G, who was part of Mega Man X Legacy Collection, also assisted in developing the theme song. With his help, I believe we made something that sounds very daring and dramatic.
As for the lyrics, there were many aspects that I wanted to emphasize. I have been a part of Mega Man X DiVE's music direction since the beginning. I've witnessed the stories of RiCO, ViA and iCO unfold. Their adventures wasn't always happy or joyful, even though the game is quite charming. These characters faced moments of tragedy. But in doing so they blossomed. I tried to incorporate that into the song's lyrics. I hope the players will feel that.
The theme song “Recognize” will be played during Mega Man X DiVE Offline's ending cutscene. I hope players will be able to listen to the lyrics while enjoying the ending animations.
The Mega Man series is known for its famous BGM? Did that create some pressure for you?
jun: The series definitely contains famous and popular BGMs. I have several favorites myself. In fact, many of those were created composers who worked on Mega Man X DiVE. Because they know those original pieces so well, the arrangements for the game came out really well. I hope players will enjoy the remixes and spot the differences from the original.
What was the most difficult part of arranging the music?
jun: Mega Man X DiVE has many characters, bosses and stages from different games, so I kept asking myself 'how can I remix these?' while keeping true to their original style. Striking a balance between honoring the past and giving a breath of fresh air to these new versions was certainly a challenge.
Lastly, is there anything you want to say to fans who supported Mega Man X DiVE?
Asada: Mega Man X DiVE Offline will be available in 9 different languages and the game is a world-wide release on iOS / Android / Steam. No matter if you are a hardcore or a casual Mega Man fan, including those who have played the online version before, I hope you will enjoy all the characters, stories and event stages once more. I hope players can enjoy the game that we made, and building their characters from scratch in the offline version.
By the way, you can also play Mega Man X DiVE Offline on the Steam Deck. I think it controls very well and feels like a hand-held game. This game includes all event stages and a music player feature, among other new functions. Capcom Japan and Taiwan have worked very hard to make this experience fresh. I hope everyone will like it!
Surprised that this is the one game they chose to translate into languages other than English (and Chinese).
ReplyDelete"This game includes all event stages and a music player feature, among other new functions." I wonder what these "other new functions" are that they're talking about?
ReplyDeleteLocal Save/Load Feature, that was featured during the recent CapcomTV Live Stream where the hosts played the final pre-release build for Offline on August 28th.
DeleteExcellent interview, and happy for the team and the work they did. And of course: FINALLY Brazilian fans will have access to a truly decent Brazilian Portuguese translation, not that tragedy made by Google Translate that Nebula Joy inserted.
ReplyDeleteTo be Honest, Isn't a Bad Game it has its flaws and that but in general perspective it was good on what they made New Armors new characters (Except the other 3), but I still feel this game could've been something more but it's a shame that'll never happen, although people seems hyped about the modding it isn't gonna be the same as something officially made and I really hope they don't put hopes on the sales of this for making a new Game cuz I assure that most people will pirate it.
ReplyDeleteSomething I caught on: During the Part 2 of the interview, when he talks about collabs not being included, it is cut off suddenly. it's a very jarring smash cut. Leads me to suspect that
ReplyDelete1. "Collabs won't be included. However we are still looking into the possibility."
2. "Collabs won't be included as part of the base game, but will be added as a DLC."
3. "Collabs won't be included on release, but on a future update after enough testing"
That's an unreasonably positive conclusion to take from that.
DeleteDid you miss the part of the interview where they mentioned they had no current plans for DLC?
Delete"We have no plans for that at the moment. Of course, we will see how the game performs."
Delete...
I'm willing to get the Android version if it means they release the Collab characters as DLC AND we get a Switch version(Especially if it also has a physical copy for those who enjoy collecting these switch carts.)
ReplyDeleteI assume Dive also ignored Wily's integration into the virus and how Wily seemingly shared a body with Sigma in Final Sigma W's form in X5 or how his consciousness can use the virus to speak to Zero and perhaps even speak to Sigma through it, probably can use the virus to materialize machines from cyberspace like we see Sigma's viral form do in X2. Lots of hints show Wily was like Sigma in his ability to possess bodies, live on through the virus, or infect others as he was integrated into the virus like Sigma, yet seemingly his own original maverick strain still being intact inside Zero and floating about the world as well, but can hope into the Sigma strain at will too. Too bad they seemed have abandoned that story element after X6. I guess Wily gets erased when the virus does before the Elf wars, assuming we never fight him again (the only times we fight Wily is when he is using his Serges avatar and sharing that body with Sigma's 2nd form in X5, as far as we can tell. I would hope for more X games to bring the focus back onto Wily and without Sigma since Sigma's mind seeming ended in X8 because Sigma was stretched too thin after putting most of himself in the copy chips and Lumine taking in the rest.If Lumine came back, being Wily's new puppet instead of Sigma. Sigma seemingly being used by Wily all along, just as Sigma he was used by Wily even more in X5, but sadly, the X hunters seem to think it was all just Sigma. Do they ever discover Wily's consciousness is in the virus behind it all, and Sigma is just another tool?
ReplyDeleteNah he just becomes a sailer a bajillion years later in the downfall timeline.
DeleteI see what you did there. The Wily from Legends. You know, when I first played Legends in 2000, I thought somehow it was connected, but did not know how Legend was connected, and wondered why that Wily was so different. Later I knew it was far future and more like a cameo kind of things. I guess akin to why the 3 world leaders in ZX are named after Thomas, Albert, Mikhail
DeleteSorry, I meant maverick hunters, not x hunters. I wish this comments forum had an edit button like forums and modern social media does.
DeleteI'd prefer legends wasn't connected at all.
DeleteLegends is so far into the future it might as well not be. Between ZX and Legends they could easily fit several entire series before the world even gets flooded.
DeleteThe final boss of the first game in the Japanese version is called a "Crazed Maverick Hunter"
DeleteLegends is the least Mega Man-y series in the franchise, change my mind.
DeleteI would argue the turn based Command Mission or MM sports games are the least MM-like games. At least Legends is still a platformer and action.
DeleteI would say battle network is the least megaman like megama series as it has no robots and closer to a pokemon game than a true megaman game
DeleteCommand Mission and Soccer has established X/Classic characters, and Mechanics like armor upgrades e-tanks and RM weapons integrated in them.
DeleteBattle Network has robots, that is just straight up false. There are almost NO animals and certainly no animals labeled monsters to collect in Battle Network. There is NO pokemon action RPGs in existence. Pokemon doesn't have armors or swappable parts to customize your action character with, to enhance their combat and movement capabilities. You cannot freely augment your character with different attacks and abilities mid battle by supplying weapons in Pokemon. Mega Man can real time platform, punch and shoot in contact sensitive mini games through the series.
And that's just the main games. Games like MMNT and RMBN:WS are straight up 2D action platformers. When you provide a Pokemon game that is a straight up 2D action platformer through and through, I will consider Mega Man Battle Network closer to Pokemon than Mega Man, you know, even though the main character you actively control is a blue robot, (yes computer ai and device manipulation of said computer ai is robotics), with a buster gun, called Mega Man, that shoots and gains other robot's abilities, and not some yellow rat-like monster with electric powers that you can only give commands to or various lizards, mammals, fish/crustaceans and general wildlife like monsters as well as keychains, and ice cream cone, chandelier etc like monsters to collect and do the same with. Either way I will concede, if you provide one single official Pokemon 2D action platformer. Until then though, My mind has not changed.
Game mechanics be damned. Your too deep into specifics. You absolutely positively cannot argue MMBN is not heavily inspired by Pokemon or like franchises. From the numerous anime. To the collectible "Gotta get em all" battle chips (in real life, no less). To the multiple cart releases. To convention exclusives. The entire goddamn reason for the MMBN spinoff was to target that demographic specifically. You will never change my mind. But if you wanna die on that hill, be my guest.
DeleteGeezus anonymous... I think 12:29 was saying it's like pokemon in that there's an element of collecting in both games (bunch of pokemon that start as enemies/bunch of chips based off of enemies) and you move around an overworld and get into random fights. You get money from winning fights. Also you can kinda customize your pokemon to a degree with tm's and such. He didn't say they're exactly the same afterall. "Closer to a pokemon game", not congruent. And pretty sure he's talking about the main BN games, so no need to argue the 2d action platformer point. Kinda unnecessary.
DeleteI think it's a fair argument, though still if you press to shoot in BN, the megaboi shoots. In CM there is no shoot-button, it's pure turn based with menu for battles and interesting team setup situation which to me feels just a bit less like a traditional megaman game than BN. Just a bit. Maybe. Hard for me to say though. Love both CM and BN though regardless.
I would agree that Battle Network isn't really anything like Pokemon except for the twin version marketing, but in regards to core gameplay Legends is closer to being a traditional Mega Man game in that at least it's about running and shooting. Battle Network's main series games are all RPG's with random encounter systems and such, and even make the buster itself much less of a focus in favor of the various chips you can use, with the idea to be to employ various strategies using chip combos to turn the tide of battle to your advantage. The most Mega Man thing about the series is the characters themselves from a lore standpoint.
Delete@shrap: You're too not into the specifics. You're so hell bent on ascribing motive, that you are missing the trees and the forest all at once.
DeleteEverything you've said could be debunked from dev logs, to other series, to the actual content and context of the series itself.
"From the numerous anime": Like what? Dragon Quest, Street Fighter, F-Zero, Kirby, Goemon, Granblue, Power Stone, Viewtiful Joe, Persona, Sakura Wars, Basara, Sonic the Hedgehog, Tales, Trails, Z.O.E, etc etc etc etc... Yeah Pokemon clones.
"To the collectible "Gotta get em all" battle chips (in real life, no less)": You mean like collectable card games, like Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Marvel(TCG), Duel Masters, Dragon Ball, One Piece and various e-reader type systems. Or do you mean in universe, like game design, collecting weapons, items, spells and summons in almost literally every single JRPG to have ever have existed including monster collecting RPGs like Megami Tensei and Dragon Quest, that predate Pokemon by a decade?
"To the multiple cart releases. To convention exclusives": Like Battle network 1 and 2 right? It's funny how BN is copying Pokemon but took two games in, to execute one of the only three reasons you can link it to Pokemon, correction, 3 games in, as BN3 was a single release in Japan and its "dual" release was the result of a bug fix definitive edition. Or maybe you mean, like Zelda Oracle of Ages/Seasons, Bomberman Max, Fire Emblem, Persona Dancing, Nintendogs etc, Yup, those Pokemon-like games. Also using marketing design/tech to say a videogame is inspired by another is absurd in its own right. That is like saying Final Fantasy is Zelda-like because it uses a save battery, or Pokemon is Tetris-like because it has link cable functionality.
I will not die on this hill and you can change my mind, since this is not religious dogma I am subscribed to, you have just simply failed to provide compelling evidence and arguments to do so.
@DeepSigh: Well, most Battle Chips are not the enemies themselves (actually many of them are allies or Megaman.EXE himself demoing a weapon or skill), that is a disingenuous comparison. Battle Chips are more akin to weapons, items and summons in traditional JRPG/JA-RPGs (Summon Knights, Kingdom Hearts CoM, Castlevania RPGs for example) than they are monsters that you collect and "raise", or in other words party members (like Suikoden recruits and Monsters/Demons from Dragon Quest, Yokai, Monster Hunter Stories and Megaten).
DeleteI don't ever remember a push for "collecting them all" in terms of Battle Chips either, outside of generic, "collect all product", advertising that companies do for every product series (in terms of merch). Actually, thematically and mechanically speaking, they definitely don't seem to push this, as there are definitely more useless chips for certain builds that would be a waste to collect later on (like weaker starting spells, weapons and armors in traditional JRPGs).
"Also you can kinda customize your pokemon to a degree with tm's and such."
Yeah, but he said specifically with armors and parts that can be swapped (as in equipped and unequipped). TMs from what I know are one time use items and permanent use items. Even HMs are permanent use items (meaning they overwrite another ability permanently). In any case, it is a MAJOR stretch to say they operate like NavCustPros.
As for an overworld and random encounters......... I..... Don't think I need to say how broad that statement is, in relation to JRPGs. Heck you can make a case for Metroidvanias having both.
Mega Man Battle Network really isn't anything like Pokemon mechanically and thematically. It's actually very unique and hard to compare to anything. I'd say Custom Robo, if you have to with a Nintendo franchise, but that game doesn't have random encounters, item loadouts by rounds, area manipulation and a crap load of other things. It's just different.
The list of things in Battle Network that are vaguely similar to Pokemon is a lot shorter than the list of things completely different from it, and it's not 1 to 1 in any regard whatsoever aside from the vague description of them both being RPG's.
Deletewhoah, whaddaya mean, Mettaur Shell and axe chips, the electric bunny chip, the yoyo, the flyer, all the boss chips, all the cannon and bomb chips, bubbler, the flame thrower one based off those fire doggos, the swords based off those sword knight guys, there's like....an enormous amount of chips based off enemies man. It's definitely a fair comparison. Again, they're not congruent, but they are similar. Unless you're saying there's no relation to any degree at all between the two that someone can make. Which that would actually be disingenuous. And that's not to say that your comparison isn't fair either. Chips are also like weapons and items from other rpgs. Both of those comparisons can exist. Just because one comparison might be more encompassing doesn't mean any other comparison is wholly incorrect.
DeleteAnd yeah, as for the rest, it's definitely broad statements, but that's kinda the point. The original comparison was a broad open ended comparison:
"I would say battle network is the least megaman like megama series as it has no robots and closer to a pokemon game than a true megaman game"
Like...it's a single chill general sentence. But for some reason anonymous decided that it should buried into the ground and that there's for some reason no possible comparison that could/should be made between the two. When I read it, I could see some similarities and apparently Shrap and the other anonymous dude could see some, so I don't get why people are refuting it like it's an insane statement to make. There'd be no argument to make on it if the one anon didn't go off and charge people to prove the existence of a similarity.
"whoah, whaddaya mean"
DeleteWhat do you mean "whoah, whaddaya mean" I literally said "most Battle Chips are not the enemies themselves", MOST, I didn't say all. The ones that are though, are akin to weapons or summons, NOT party members. As a matter of fact, you've made my point, Met Sheilds are not literally Mets, they are met weapons and abilities. The bunnies are not literally the virus, but a gun arm weapon based on them. Yort and Yoyo is THE BEST example, as the enemy is already shaped like a gun, all the devs had to do was make the exact sprite of the enemy on Megaman.EXE's arm when using the chip, yet he has a unique looking gun that doesn't look anything like the enemy when using it, indicating that he is using its powers, not the virus itself. The mini bombs and cannons even, are grenades that Megaman.EXE tosses, while the enemies are giant cannon balls that shoot smaller cannons out of their mouths. Same logic with the sword chips, bubbles etc.
Like I said before, Navi Chips act like one time use summons, more closely related to Bahamut Zero in FF7 or Venus from Golden Sun, than they are to catching a Gyarados or a Sandshrew. Also, there are many Chips that are not obtained by winning them in battle vs said Chip's corresponding Navi/Virus, None of the Roll Chips as an example. A ton of them you can outright buy/obtain at shops (lending credit to them being more like items then party members), heck in BN4.5/5/6 you can have both the Navi's chip (to summon them) and have them act as party members proper.
I don't think they are wholly not comparable at all, or have no similarities whatsoever, they are both video games after all, that is not the point. It becomes disingenuous when you take two radically different things in execution and design and use very broad generalities to say they are similar in a context about similar series. So yes, they both have overworlds for example, but to say they are similar because of this, is disingenuous. That's why am listing exhaustive differences between the way Battle Chips and Pokemon work as to render the comparison nonsensical and only hinged on vague notions of collectibles in video games.
Your last statement is tantamount to argumentum ad populum, an informal fallacy. It suggests that something is true because others think it is (usually the majority), rather than the objectivity and merits of the subject matter itself.
Sure, the action uses parts of the enemies, but the chips themselves like I mentioned initially are still based on the enemies, which is the statement you were arguing against and saying was somehow disingenuous. I mean the chips literally have the enemies as the illustration for the chips. The collecting of those is what's similar to the collecting of pokemon. The way they're used, yeah like I already agreed with before is more like items or weapons, Navi chips are for sure like summons, but I can see the comparison to pokemon as well in a general sense.
DeleteOf course comparing more than the fact that they're both games. If you're just talking about collecting things that are pretty much the core of the game, they're not radically different. And it's not just one thing either. It's collectively. Shrap mentioned some examples, the other anon mentioned another. Focus on collecting, the double version marketing, the idea of humans having they're own PET/NetNavi that become the focus of the game, the random encounters, battling other people's Navi's... stuff like that. Put it all together and I think you can call it a fair comparison. They're not so wildly different that comparing them would be an insane disingenuous take.
I mean, when you're comparing two things, the differences aren't the important part anyway tbh. It's the similar aspects and the context of the comparison that important. That's usually the point of comparisons in normal day to day speaking.
I don't care much about all that weird debate-bro fallacy shiz; doesn't feel like one anon's general one sentence statement needs that much heavy scrutiny. We're talkin about chips and mons, it's not all too serious. ...wait, One, are you the same anon that started the change my mind argument to begin with?
"I mentioned initially are still based on the enemies, which is the statement you were arguing against and saying was somehow disingenuous"
DeleteI am arguing against that, and it's still a disingenuous take. In fact, the way you put it now is even more disingenuous than before. You were saying Chips were based on the enemies, I went at length to name numerous ones that buck that.
Here> "actually many of them are allies or Megaman.EXE himself"
Here> "Yort and Yoyo is THE BEST example, as the enemy is already shaped like a gun, all the devs had to do was make the exact sprite of the enemy on Megaman.EXE's arm when using the chip, yet he has a unique looking gun that doesn't look anything like the enemy when using it"
And Here> "Also, there are many Chips that are not obtained by winning them in battle vs said Chip's corresponding Navi/Virus, None of the Roll Chips as an example. A ton of them you can outright buy/obtain at shops (lending credit to them being more like items"
You just ignore all that to now formulate this new disingenuous argument on Chips having enemy illustrations on them, which is an even more shallow argument that is already debunked by the various statements above already made.
"The collecting of those is what's similar to the collecting of pokemon."
That's the point, to say Battle Chips are similar to Pokemon due to collecting is an absurd stretch. Despite how vastly different they function, saying they are similar due to collecting, is like me saying Devil May Cry is similar to Pokemon because you collect items based on enemies. Threads of Fate is like Pokemon cause you collect monsters and abilities based on them, to use, etc etc.. It's so generalized and broad as to render the comparison meaningless (and I am being generous by naming things you CAN even vaguely connect to other aspects of Pokemon).
"I don't care much about all that weird debate-bro fallacy shiz;"
I know that, I can clearly see that now. Which is why I would be a fool to continue arguing with you in good faith.
"wait, One, are you the same anon that started the change my mind argument to begin with?"
No. Although I hope whoever that was, finds me taking up the mantle amusing. When I put it like that, I really do look sad for engaging in these fruitless debates even more then I thought, after some self-reflection and critique.
Yeah, I guess you just missed the original point and I should've restated more correctly in my first response to you, but I didn't realize you would be so unwilling to understand other people's positions. I think you weren't as good faith as you maybe you thought or intended to be or something. Even now, with you saying I made up a new argument, but it's the same one I started with. Been saying the chips are based off the enemies from the start. Somehow you ended up deciding that if the attack doesn't show the entire enemy, then that means the chips aren't based on the enemies. Or that my statement about it isn't true or is at the very least disingenuous, when honestly I was just trying to explain the possible correlation the one anon tried to bring up. I mean, hey, what would you say is the correlation he was going for when he made the statement?
DeleteAnd I'm not ignoring what you said about the chips, I just realized you misunderstood what I meant by "based on enemies". I just went and checked the chips in BN3 and it looks at least close to even the amount of chips based on enemies and those that aren't, but arguing the amount of enemy based chips in the series doesn't really matter if that's not even what I was getting at initially. That's why I just let you have that argument. It's a fine point. It's just not what I was saying.
Naturally the debate would be fruitless; people were speaking pretty generally without a hard stance till change-my-mind anon went off for some reason. People were talking pretty casually and subjectively till then. Trying to debate-bro against a subjective opinion like that is kinda....
And it's cool if you don't agree with the dude's statement; I wouldn't really be bothered if you just wrote up what you thought would be a better comparison, but I don't get putting down the pokemon one and any reasons for it. And super don't get ascribing some devious intent or fakeness to me trying to explain how the comparison could make sense. What even would be an ingenuous statement for the dude's comment at this point? You didn't really extend any charity or good faith whatever to me from the start it seems like.
Although I disagree with it being as a whole a copy of Pokemon, I'm sure when Shrap mentioned anime he meant the accompanying anime which is a glorified toy commercial like Pokemon. As for the "Gotta Catch Em All" the game and the ads definitely encourage the player to get all chips. Multiple cart releases just meant different versions even if it got introduced from 4 and on, it still happened. As well as convention exclusives like the Bass card in 1. It isn't a copy of Pokemon but to think that Capcom didn't copy some of the marketing gimmicks is very disingenuous, it's straight up being in denial.
DeleteI am "the change my mind" Anon. I do think it is disingenuous to say that the collecting of cards (which is what chips are, I mean even the sequel series straight up makes them cards) is the similarity to catching Pokemon to say it was inspired by it. Collectible cards are going to be collected, that's what is done, and its been happening for centuries.
DeleteThat's neither here nor there though. Even if I were to grant you that Pokemon are similar to battle cards (which I don't agree with), and grant you that working with a companion is similar to Pokemon (which I also disagree with). As well as grant overworlds, versions (which do not exist for more than 70% of the series), Net-Battlers/Battles or whatever. I contend that Mega Man Battle Network is still not closer to Pokemon than Mega Man.
For one big fact, and that is, it is majority, and I mean every single game except Chip Challenge (and even then) infused with real-time active combat elements. No Pokemon game, and I mean 0, not a one, has that. "But what about Pokken?" The one, ONE, Pokemon spin-off that could be used as an example, has the misfortune of never being technically branded Pokemon or its Japanese equivalent (which I am willing to grant) Pocket Monsters, haha. The irony. "But anon, didn't you say Network Transmission and Rockman.EXE WS was part of Battle Network, without being branded Battle Network?". Three things to say about that. 1. they both hold the same branding as EXE-JPN, which were all recently compiled into a single release as of recent, tying them together officially (as a world wide equivalent, as in same, brand). 2. Unlike Pokken, they were canonized into the central Battle Network timeline and story setting. 3. If you make that argument, then you defeat your side's argument with the T.V tie in series, as that is called Mega Man NT (Network Transmission).
"But Legends Arce-": Let me stop you right there.
"But it has act": Stop!
"But Anon, aren't you being a hypocrite? You start by saying people are being disingenuous but then nitpick technicalities to make your point"
Well yes, you see, it doesn't work that way. You lot don't get to make ridiculous comparisons on things that are vastly different and expect me to grant you them based on technicalities, while also expecting me not to do the same. I am fully aware of how ridiculous it is to claim Pokken isn't a Pokemon game based on something like branding, but to me, it is no more ridiculous as saying battle cards are like Pokemon because "you collect them", or they "sometimes have the picture of enemies on them", or some inane thing like that.
With that out the way, yes that is the big thing that puts Mega Man Battle Network across the finish line as being closer to Mega Man than Pokemon. On top of things like, you know, lore, character design, main theme of robotics and computer science, music etc Oh, and also, TWO ENTIRE GAMES THAT ARE ACTION PLATFORMERS. Don't think I let that slip, DeepSigh tried to pull a fast one and fill in the gaps for the one dude by saying "pretty sure he's talking about the main BN games". Yeah, I don't care what he meant, if it is contextually to my question of series, than let it reference the series and not cherry pick games to suit a narrative.
My mind has yet to be changed, reinforced, if anything.
I agree with the side that says people comparing Mega Man Battle Network to Pokemon are the disingenous ones. They know BN is commonly misconstrued as a Pokemon clone.
DeleteWe had a discussion solely on Mega Man, but these Pokemon people always have to incert it at the very wiff of Battle Network and what it's like. Every, single, time.
The question of Mega Man Legends being the least Mega Man-like series doesn't require Pokemon at all. All it requires is pointing out what is more or less Mega Man between it and the other Mega Man series. But these people, always bring Pokemon up out of nowhere, every time in contexts such are these.
Battle Network is the least Mega Man like series in the Mega Man franchise not because of Pokemon, but because the series itself inclines towards RPG's. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions and not the rule. Battle Network is indeed more like Mega Man than it is like Pokemon, but it is still primarily within an entirely different genre than the rest of the franchise it is a part of. At least in the case of Legends it still boils down to the same sort of running and lemon shooting gameplay, just in 3D instead of 2D. It's much more true to the series roots than Battle Network.
DeleteWellp, considering I played BN slightly later than others and Pokemon Gold was the last pokemon game I played fully, I guess I missed out on the idea of BN being a Pokemon clone being a common thing. Literally didn't know that was a thing people have been saying. Definitely wouldn't say they're clones. I'm not a "pokemon people". I don't even care for the games these days. And haven't really seen anyone bring up the comparison in the last BN posts on this site, but maybe I just missed those comments. Would appreciate peeps not jumping to disingenuity when they read a different opinion though. Kinda sucks tbh, but if that's just a weird reoccurring fandom issue then my bad for not knowing about it.
DeleteI already said my piece about BN and Command Mission so I got nothing much else to add there, Mark. Honestly wasn't aware.
For Anon, I definitely agree on the no-active-combat point, wouldn't really even try to argue that. I don't think anyone would try to go to Pokken since that's not even a mainline pokemon game really. When shrap said you were too far into the specifics, I'd definitely agree at least with that specific point. You don't even have to go that deep. Most people aren't gonna use the fighting game and apply it as a representation for the franchise, besides like an additional aside maybe. Like...you said it's ridiculous to not consider Pokken and pokemon game, but I think most people get what you mean when you say that. It's fine dude. It's a pokemon game, but it doesn't feel like a traditional pokemon game...cuz it's an arena fighting game. That's not even me extending charity to your point, it just seems pretty obvious.
And, dude, I'm not trying to "pull a fast one", not really trying to argue that hard, just responding with what I know and what I see. I didn't even know BN had 2 action platformers. I don't know anything about those games. I just know the BN games that were in the collection, specifically BN3 (I didn't buy the collection so I don't really know the others besides random footage/images/sprites). I'd personally consider those outliers just like pokken would be an outlier to pokemon, which (besides literally not knowing those 2 games existed) is why I assume the anon meant the mainline BN games. Anon dude can come back and clarify if he wants, but doesn't seem likely. You don't care either way though, so wouldn't matter regardless. And if you're not excluding those 2 games in your view of BN, then yeah makes sense that you wouldn't change your mind and be fervently against the comparison. Granted, I'm not invested in changing your mind, I'm just trying to explain the dude's statement since I feel like both your initial stance and anon's are fair.
Still, alot of those additional things you mentioned "character design, theme, music etc" are also things that apply to Legends right? Is it just the gameplay itself that makes you put it below BN in terms of MegaMan-likeness?
CMM-Anon Here
Delete"At least in the case of Legends it still boils down to the same sort of running and lemon shooting gameplay, just in 3D instead of 2D. It's much more true to the series roots than Battle Network."
I can grant core gameplay. Yes Legends is closer to Mega Man than Battle Network in terms of core gameplay (if we discount the 2D action platformers). However that doesn't necessarily say Legends has close gameplay to Mega Man 2D action platformers, or that BN doesn't have any relation to them at all. Which brings me to my rebuttal in this specific instance...
@DeepSigh
"alot of those additional things you mentioned "character design, theme, music etc" are also things that apply to Legends right?"
Yes, but can you honestly say that Legends has more in common with Mega Man in that regard than Battle Network? Legends has the sci-fi theme of robotics, a blue robot that primarily uses a buster gun, an adoptive sister named Roll, maybe an Einstein looking dude named Wily, and a poster of Zero or some other prominent past game icon here and there. Battle Network has all that (except Roll is MM's...love interest??? IDK, an unrelated companion), a guy who looks exactly like Dr. Light in a Hawaiian getup, called Dr. Light (at least in Japanese) doing Dr. Light things, a buttload of Navis (most of them) named after and based on Robot Masters and Reploids, literally Zero from the Zero series (who also fights BN viruses when entering his universe's cyber-world), remixed music lifted directly from Robot Master stage themes as Navi themes, enemies like mets, plot structure. I am sure I am missing some things.
"Is it just the gameplay itself that makes you put it below BN in terms of MegaMan-likeness?"
Not really, no. In other words I don't think Legends' action adventure gameplay is close enough to Mega Man to cover for the deficiency of Mega Man-like themes, references and audio/visual design elements against MMBN.
Although I agree with 2:16 PM anon there's a part that's wrong and wanted to clear out a possible confusion:
Delete-Mega Man NT Warrior(not NT only) is an anime adaptation of the games and is not canon to the games, only to itself. The original Japanese title(Rockman EXE) has the same name as the Japanese version of the games except lacking the "Battle Network" part that was dropped from the games starting with 4 and on.
-Rockman EXE WS is a WonderSwan game adaptation of the anime. It's a spin-off that's not canon to the games that released after 3 but before Transmission.
-Mega Man Network Transmission(Rockman EXE Transmission) is a GameCube game that takes place between 1 and 2. It's canon to the games but not to the anime even though it includes the opening of the anime. It's a canon spin-off that released after 3.
All that to say that WS isn't canon but Transmission is. The way it was worded almost made it sound like both were canon. They are part of the brand though.
@CMM-Anon, I see what you mean. I'd have to go back and parse through Legends series again to check what references to the rest of the series, but I'd be comfortable saying BN has more references to the classic megaman series than Legends. But when I think about mechanically/gameplay-wise that's when I'm not entirely sure. Like you mentioned with the core gameplay, it feels like megaman but 3d. I don't know if that's closer to traditional megaman than BN's core gameplay though if I include all aspects of it so... Legends also feels more straightforward in it's gameplay to me, whereas BN kind of adds quite a few different things with the chips and ATB system, the NaviCust can be likened to the customizations in classic and X but just a bit more complex, the style change is like a separate X armor switchup but with some differences in how they function mechanically and I don't remember many classic games that really had something like that? In addition to all the stuff mentioned before etc.
DeleteLegends does have a lot of difference though despite feeling more straightforward, so I get that perspective too for sure. I just can't decide which feels more or less MegaMan-like all together (without really going back and checking through everything and how it feels when I play). And I feel like for other people, depending on what they value most from the traditional MegaMan games, that'll inform their answer to that question.
For you it seems like the MegaMan references carry a bit more weight than the overall gameplay so it makes sense that BN would be closer. For that one anon, I guess some aspect of gameplay might weigh more than the references so BN feels further away than Legends does for him. ...sort of typing this at 3:54am so....bit too tired to expound and check over what I wrote, but yeah. I get both stances and I feel they're both fair.
CMM-Anon here
Delete@DeepSigh
Battle Network definitely objectively has more references to past classic Mega Man series (I mean heck it even has references to Mega Man Legends), than Legends. That cannot be disputed in terms of overall art and lore aspects.
That said, the real question is if that is enough to make it more Mega Man-like against Legends, despite Legend's being more Mega Man-like in terms of core gameplay.
Like you mentioned, outside of the core gameplay, the surrounding gameplay in BN seems to have relation to Classic and X games, with armors, parts, weapon effects etc. Legends however, past the core gameplay, really doesn't function like classic Mega Man games (as in the lauded 2D action platformers that are agreed upon to be Mega Man proper) at all. Volnutt, can jump and shoot, check. Nothing else really is Mega Man like. Is there non-linear level selection, that can be quick traveled to? No, not really. Can Volnutt consume boss powers and use them as weaknesses for other bosses or for general purpose use in combat and stages? Nope (even some Zelda games do that sometimes). Does Volnutt have a companion that aids him in combat, some might argue Roll, but I say she fills the spot of Navigator, which was later expanded on in the X series, some would say Data, but Data acts more like a save menu/checkpoint. So I would say, no, not really. Can he dash, wall kick, charge shot, slide, Giga Attack, anything? No, not really. He can jet skate which can sort of parallel as a dash, maybe, and possibly a saber slash, which could relate to sword attacks in other Mega Man games (although he uses it like a projectile)... There are armor parts, but they do not add functionality (although I think one reduces knock back, I think, not sure), just stats, and outside of the optional helmet, no visual changes. That's about it though, there really is nothing much connecting Mega Man Legends to previous series outside of the core jumping and shooting. It has features unique to it that would drastically change the platforming of the other platformers though, like ledge grabbing.
So me taking all that into consideration, Legends simply is not close enough to Mega Man in terms of gameplay, to use gameplay as the main argument for why Legends is closer than Battle Network to Mega Man (proper). Not when balanced against all the other things Battle Network has going for it, I mean Legends doesn't even have Mets, literally every other Mega Man series shares that.
Mega Man Battle Network is a deck-builder RPG, it's not Pokemon.
DeleteSlay the Spire is closer to MMBN than Pokemon ever will be.
Y'all on something else.
"yes computer ai and device manipulation of said computer ai is robotics"
DeleteI'll say there is a difference between controlling an ai that controls a vessel and controlling an avatar ai even if they are both robotics.
There seems to be a misconception. Artificial intelligence is the simulation of human intelligence processes by machines, especially computer systems. The navis are computer programs with ai that's in the field of Robotics yes but they still AREN'T robots just programs. The navis wouldn't become robots until a real body is given to them like the copybots instead of their digital ones which are defined through their coding. Completely different from the characters of classic that are meant to be robots with a real body by design.
DeleteForgot to mention that even with the copybots they're still technically computer programs. They can manipulate a vessel but they weren't made in mind as a machine. They would be robots informally as long as they use the copybots but technically aren't. Navis manipulating computer programs of devices don't make them robots. Just clarifying to not spread disinformation like CMM-anon did.
Delete@CMM-Anon
DeleteWell CMM-anon, you see, it doesn't work that way. You don't get to spread disinformation and run away like a coward. You're gonna get called out and you did. Also, it's clear that some parts of Battle Network were inspired by Pokemon like the anime tie-in and other things that were mentioned prior like the multiple versions(EVEN if it happened from 3 onwards and EVEN if 3 Blue was more of an update than its own separate version), convention exclusives, etc. Otherwise, what a coincidence that they decided to make an anime not to classic, not to X, not to Legends, not to Zero BUT to Battle Network almost a year later, off by a few days. Kind of like how Pokemon did with its anime adaptation releasing a year, a month and a couple days later. Yeah, I'm sure it's all just a big coincidence and only shares similarities with card games, get real.
@CMM-Anon
DeleteReferences to a franchise doesn't make a game more like it, that's ridiculous. Trying to connect completely different games with meta references(like the no metalls complaint) is pure nonsense. What makes a Mega Man game part of the franchise is gameplay, period. I mean, it doesn't even share the same themes. There's no power of friendship in the Mega Man franchise nor power of brotherhood, really. Lan isn't a peacekeeper(except in 5 where he formed a police-like team, but that's the only time), he doesn't try to actively investigate what's wrong with the world around him(he doesn't care about the rest of the world), things just kind of happen to him and he resolves them(the incidents revolve around him). He also doesn't sacrifice his peaceful way of living to save the world. If it doesn't connect through gameplay at the very least it could've shared the same environment/atmosphere(worldview, themes), not that that would make it more Mega Man-like but it at least helps. Not even the characters are similar, the Dr. Wily from Battle Network wants to destroy the entire network and possibly the world. The real Dr. Wily from Mega Man just wants to conquer the world, not destroy it!
The armours in Battle Network are nothing like in Original and X, what are you even talking about? First of all, they aren't real armours(with the Styles the appearance slightly changes like a single arm, the Soul Unisons are more of a temporal mixing of both Navis, the Cross Changes at least last the entire battle and Beast Out is also temporal), second, there isn't a single armour or armour part that has any elemental properties in Original or X and third they are not even permanent(you are forced to change Styles and as for the rest they are either temporal or have to manually select them during battle). Besides armours were introduced in 6 and have been dropped since 8. Weapons can't really be used in the environment because levels don't technically exist in Battle Network, you can sacrifice Battlechips in specific scenarios but that isn't the same and not to mention in Battle Network it is mandatory. The non-linear selection comparison is pointless because that doesn't change Legends having platforming gameplay and Battle Network doesn't have it either. All of your comparisons are irrelevant because at the end of the day Legends is part platformer and Battle Network isn't. Data tells you exactly what to do when you are lost, like, you know, a navigator. The comparison between what X can do and what Volnutt can't is pointless because Original can't do them either and slide was introduced starting from 3 anyways, it is not something the character started with. The complaining of the ledge grabbing is also pointless because yet again Legends is part platformer and this "point" relies completely on a what-if. All of these comparisons are utterly dishonest and laughable. I also like how you write that you grant core gameplay only to proceed to argue against it. "Change my mind", yeah right. You were never going to do that. Enjoy agonizing in that hill!
So taking all these into consideration, objectively Battle Network isn't anywhere close to Mega Man regardless of the subject while Legends on the other hand is infinitely closer to it than the other will ever be. Battle Network is not even "Mega Man-y", it is its own thing altogether. Those are the facts.
@CMM-Anon
DeleteExcept for lack of a stage selection and boss weapon absorption, everything you stated can also be applied to X. What's unique to X is good, but what's unique to Volnutt is "le bad", because? Oh who am I kidding, there's no because. It's because you need to prop that other franchise up and have no honest way of doing so. You have to think of a fall guy(something to blame, it couldn't be that the criticism is valid, right?), after some time thinking, you choose the series you dislike the most and throw it under the bus, and THAT, is the real because. Inappropriate mention of Zelda aside, the complaining of the ledge grabbing is meaningless because the game was designed with it in mind. Don't tell me you're one of the morons that think Legends ripped it off when Legends came out first?
It's exciting we're getting a new mega man song.
ReplyDeleteSo how is the soundtrack to the game? Also, how is x-kai's stage & story?
ReplyDelete@Protodude: Are you going to do a highlight on 30XX leaving early access and getting a 1.0 release? I know it's technically not Mega Man, but people here may be interested to hear that it's finished.
ReplyDeleteOkay. My main question has been answered: no more gashapon. Very cool.
ReplyDeleteI still feel like this will be a grind-fest, of course, but still. It's nice that it was reworked to play like old-style games, where you unlock stuff through just playing the game normally.
Based on what we have seen in video's they have provided such as the trailers and devlog type stuff, it looks like the grind is vastly reduced. Their estimation for full completion is around 50 hours (The same time it takes to beat the original Final Fantasy VII), but if all you care about is beating the story and unlocking and upgrading your favorite characters it's probably not going to be all that bad.
DeleteI mean, yeah. Once I get Roll, the Crimson Scythe, and some kind of Gatling Gun, I really don't care about any other unlocks. I just want to play through the story mode from start to finish, though I might go back, later, and get 100% unlocks, if the requirements aren't absolutely unreasonable. (Not looking forward to the tedious Jakob Elevator, again…)
DeleteGood news about Jakob's Orbital Elevator is that they removed the stamina so you can retry as much as you want, even as the same character over and over. The only thing you lose for failing is time.
DeleteCo-op Stages are omitted from this game that not even Stage 18 saw the light of day.
ReplyDelete