New evidence has emerged supporting an age-old theory that Dr. Wily shares a deep connection with Mega Man X series characters Serges and Isoc. The following guest post by Mega Man lore historian Zan Sidera brings all the pieces of the puzzle together at last!
Serges and Isoc - The Wily Connection
by Zan Sidera
(special thanks to Sidier for translation work, Reploid_21XX for header image)
(special thanks to Sidier for translation work, Reploid_21XX for header image)
“Like the legendary mad scientist, he is a super genius!”[3]
For decades now, fans have pondered about Serges (Mega Man X2)[1], Isoc (Mega Man X6)[2], and their implied connection to Zero’s creator: Dr. Wily.
Serges, in particular, had his genius compared to the “legendary mad scientist”[3], and accomplished several nigh-impossible feats. He...
- Made the Z-saber [4], perhaps using X-buster technology,[4][5]
- Revived the unanalyzable[6] Zero when no one else could[45][7][8] (not even the most gifted roboticist of the 22nd century[9]), and made Sigma’s new body too.[3]
- Knew about X and Thomas Light[10] (insinuating antagonism)[46], as well as the ‘Rockman’ title[11], coinciding with Sigma having learned the identity of Zero’s creator.[12]
Isoc
“The horizontal piece on his head is supposed to be hair.”[13]
Meanwhile, Isoc was designed by Haruki Suegetsu (illustrator) while “thinking about a certain scientist”[13], shares a voice actor with Dr. Wily (the late Takeshi Aono), and...
- Had an unhealthy obsession with Zero,[14][15]
- “Saw” Zero before anyone found out he was alive,[16]
- Knew Zero “inside out”, claiming he could capture him “at any time”,[17] and successfully trapped Zero in an unbreakable timed-release force field to emphasize that point,[18][15]
- Only to end up being mysteriously ‘Erased’,[19][15]
- And seemingly called out to Zero -- inside of his mind -- to motivate “the strongest robot”.[20]
In other words, both of these Reploids boast intimate knowledge about Zero that no one but his own creator should have. They also both have personality quirks similar to the good doctor.
It’s almost as if the two of them... were Wily himself.
Dr. Wily
“Dr. Wily had died in the interim but was brought back by the virus.”[32]
That old man…
- Hated X as much as Sigma did,[21]
- Was someone who Zero saw inside of his dreams,[22][24]
- Knew quite a lot about Zero, almost like a father,[22]
- Created an endless amount of robots in the past[21], plus several in the present,[21][26][27][28]
- Told Sigma that Zero is the world’s strongest[22], but also that the current Zero is not the ‘real’ Zero,[23]
- Advised Sigma on how to awaken Zero’s true self[23], creating the Zero Virus from the merger of the Sigma Virus and the Colony Virus in order to do so,[25]][29][30]
- And seemingly called out to Zero -- inside of his mind -- to motivate “the best of all his works”.[31]
Since Keiji Inafune (X-series Planner and Producer) stated that Wily “had died in the interim”[32] (after completing his ZERO Project, midway through his Robot Virus Project[33]), it is unlikely that Sigma met an actual living, breathing, flesh and blood human. Instead, since Wily was “brought back by the virus”[32] that he himself created[33][34][35], he most likely returned in the form of a program or a machine: a twisted parallel to Dr. Light's appearance as a hologram.
However, when asked if Serges is Wily, Inafune always answers: “He might be... he might not be.” The creator thinks this is “one of those things that is best left without an official comment.”, believing in “planting seeds of imagination in players and letting them come to their own conclusions.”[36]
Now, while the fanbase has definitely used their imagination aplenty over the years, Inafune’s stance has left us without an official answer to reconcile our own conclusions. The connection cannot be truly confirmed.
Except, as it turns out, Hitoshi Ariga (of Megamix and Gigamix fame) had revealed to us a large piece of the puzzle in his Rockman Database. One that went unnoticed since 1999!
In Dr. Wily’s profile, based on the setting transcribed for the manga, the following is written under “Game Appearances”:
“During the X series, a Repliroid with Wily's memories, "Serges", appears in X2.”[0]
Here, Serges is outright -- beyond a shadow of a doubt -- said to be a Reploid with Wily’s ‘memories’. And though X5 and X6 had yet to be conceived at the time of writing, this same sentiment would have to extend to Isoc by association.
Furthermore, the same Sigma Virus responsible for bringing Wily back[32], does more than simply feed a Reploid’s mind with destructive impulses[37]. It’s also described as a ‘possessing malice’ that can utterly change the host’s very thoughts[38] and rewrite its ‘memories’[39].
Could this be the means by which Wily had implanted his memories inside of them?
In any case, even in light of this new information, we should continue to use our imagination. Does this mean that Serges and Isoc were indeed the one and only Albert W. Wily revived? Or were they merely Repliroids built in his image -- made to act like the original -- akin to the many robotic duplicates Wily has in the Classic-series? What if, similar to how the New Generation Reploids were able to ‘become Sigma’[40][41][42] (because they bore copy chips containing Sigma’s personal data[43][44]), it is also possible for Reploids to ‘become Wily’?
Despite the ‘official comment’, many possibilities still remain. Multiple conclusions can be drawn from the same evidence, and everyone is free to come up with their own.
Perhaps Mega Man X9 will hold the answer?
References
[0]
Drワイリー
Dr. Wily
登場ゲーム…ほぼすべてのロックマン関係のゲームに登場。
Games he appears in... He appears in almost all Rockman-related games.
Ｘシリーズではワイリーの記憶を持ったレプリロイド、「サーゲス」がＸ２に、Ｘ４ではムービー部分に本人が登場。
During the X series, a Repliroid with Wily's memories, "Serges", appears in X2. In X4 he himself appears in the movie portions.
ＤＡＳＨでは同名のキャラクターが登場している。
A character with the same name appears in the DASH (series)
[1]
SERGES
One of the X-Hunters, whose mission is to annihilate the Maverick Hunters — X especially. Though he is not very useful in a combat setting, Serges makes himself useful as something of a scientist and boasts immeasurable intellectual capacity.
- Mega Man X Official Complete Works, page 90 (softcover) / page 4 (hardcover)
- Mega Man & Mega Man X Official Complete Works MM25, page 148
[2]
ISOC
Isoc is a scientific Reploid who organized an investigation unit to try and solve the mystery behind the Nightmare phenomenon.
- Mega Man X Official Complete Works, page 90 (softcover) / page 4 (hardcover)
- Mega Man & Mega Man X Official Complete Works MM25, page 148
[3]
Sagesse (Serges)Leader of the three Counter Hunters. Like the legendary mad scientist (an evil-doing researcher), quite a genius! Headsmart but lacking in bodily power, will utilize crafty attacks while riding mecha like levitating platforms or tanks.
- Rockman & Rockman x himitsu daihyakka, page 88
(translated by Sb20)
[4]
Z-SABER
It’s incredibly destructive. However it’s a close-quarters weapon so depending on the situation, you might have to evaluate how to use it.
Setting: At the time of the “Irregular Wars”, there were the “10 Shining Weapons” developed for top-class Irregular Hunters. The whole sequence of events is unknown, but one of them was custom-made by “Serges” of the Counter Hunters during the “restoration of Zero”, that much is certain.
The same tech of the “X-Buster (Rock-Buster Mk. 17)” [First appeared in the SNES introduction of Rockman X], which powers up its abilities and its shape (of the Buster itself) using battle data as a basis, is used for the “10 Shining Weapons”.
When “Zero” went into slumber at the lab, as the carrier of the Sigma Virus, the Z-Saber's whereabouts became unknown yet…
[5]
The Ten Shining Weapons
ZERO 4
A set of weapons made for the Top-Class Maverick Hunter of the Maverick Wars. X's X-buster, Zero's Z-saber, and each of the weapons wielded by the Four Guardians are in this set.
- Mega Man Zero Official Complete Works, page 167
[6]
Alia: I hesitate to say this... He also aimed to make the strongest Reploids. Zero and X... He wanted you. He believed that the ultimate Reploid can never be analyzed…
- Mega Man X6
[7]
ZERO
Zero was an SA-CIass hunter who fought alongside X in the 17th Unit.
He was X's closest friend and one of the few who could truly understand him. During Sigma's uprising, Zero detonated his own power core to save X and was critically damaged, but miraculously his cortex chip was unscathed. It is currently being stored at Maverick Hunter HO, but even Dr. Cain has proven incapable of repairing his reploid body.
- Mega Man X Legacy Collection, X2
[8]
Douglas: It's hard to repair the bodies of X and Zero because they're still a mystery…
- Mega Man X5
[9]
DR. CAIN
The most gifted roboticist of the 22nd century.
Dr. Cain's groundbreaking development of reploids broke down the barriers between robot and human as his creations exhibited the capacity to think, feel, and make decisions for themselves.
Dr. Cain now spends his days as the founder and director of the Maverick Hunters, but he remains a mysterious figure even to those closest to him.
- Mega Man X Legacy Collection, X2
[10]
Serges: This is impossible! The prophecy must be fulfilled!
Serges: ワシはここで ほろびるのか？
ライトのわすれがたみの
ロボットに またはいぼく
するとは・・・ むねんじゃ・・
Serges: Am I to perish here? Defeated by Light’s memento robot again… how regretful…
- Mega Man X2 / Rockman X2
[11]
Serges: Greetings. We have all of Zero’s parts.
Serges: ・・・ ・・・ガガ・・・ ガガガ
ロック・・・ エ・・・クス・・・
Serges: … …crrrk… …bzzzt….Rock…E…cks…
- Mega Man X2 / Rockman X2
[12]
Sigma: Why did Zero…he is… last… of the doctor’s creations…
Sigma: しかし ゼロはなぜ・・・
やつは・・・ さいごの・・・
ワイ・・ ナン・・・ズの・・・
Sigma: But, Zero, why…he’s…the last of…Wi…num…ers…
-Mega Man X2 / Rockman X2
[13]
ISOC
"I was thinking about a certain scientist while designing this character. The horizontal piece on his head is supposed to be hair. I also gave him a beard and something that looks like a necktie." (Suetsugu)
- Mega Man X Official Complete Works, page 57
- Mega Man & Mega Man X Official Complete Works MM25, page 201
[14]
Gate: Isoc, I have been thinking about that. You're obsessed with Zero, aren't you?
- Mega Man X6
[15]
Relationship with Isoc:
Isoc is a scientist Repliroid who cooperated with Gate during the Nightmare Virus incident. But his actions have several enigmas to them.
His cooperation with Gate was to retrieve Zero’s body, and was fixated in searching for his body, believed to have been annihilated. And when Zero was found, he used a timer deactivation type of program on him, succeeding in confining him.
Also, when Gate’s laboratory was about to be destroyed, Isoc’s body was found and it felt like an empty shell.
His abnormal obsession for Zero, and detailed information about him was probably held by Isoc. Who was he really?
Caption: Isoc found, and feeling like an empty shell. Had he really been annihilated or…?
- Compendium of Rockman X
[16]
Gate: By the way, have you found what you're looking for? I guess it doesn't exist in this world...
Isoc: Oh, no. It does. I've seen him... Besides, he isn't some low Reploid that would die in such a trivial battle.
- Mega Man X6
[17]
Zero: Guhwaaaaah!! Wh... what!? I... I... can't move... Kugh.
Isoc: Zero... I know you inside out... Hmm. Since I found out you're alive, I can capture you at any time.
- Mega Man X6
[18]
Alia: It's some kind of force field. It seems to take time to release it. Can you move if it isn't released?
Zero: I hate to admit it, but I can't...
Alia: Aw? The force field... It seems to have a timing device. It might be released in due course. But it's strange... Why did he try so hard to trap Zero? What was his intention?
- Mega Man X6
[19]
Alia: ... X. Can you hear me? I found out... That's Isoc's body. It just broke down. Is he dead? ... This is similar to the Erasure Incident...
X: There's no reaction... What is this? ... No. I have to go! I must get Sigma!!
- Mega Man X6
[20]
???: G... go, Zero! You're the strongest robot!
Zero: Um? ... Did someone call me?
- Mega Man X6
[21]
Sigma: Here I am. You can challenge me at anytime. I have delightful news. I've recently acquired a new partner. He has been very supportive. He seems to have created quite a few robots. And he gave me the toughest body that you will ever see. You got here sooner than I expected, so it is not yet complete... But...it is enough to defeat you... He is an excellent partner... I believe you two know each other... In fact, he used to be a comrade of yours. He was very persistent about you... and that makes him very helpful to me. You see X, there is someone other than me...who hates you... Now feel our combined rage and die! ...But not before suffering horribly, ha ha ha! ...Goodbye, X!
シグマ: ここだよ、にげもかくれもせん…じつはな、こんかいよきパートナーがいてな…いろいろとサポートしてくれたのだよ。かこに、かぞえきれないほどのロボットをつくったらしく…いまからみせる最強のボディもあたえてくれた。おまえがくるのが、はやかった
ので、みかんせいだがな…まー、これでじゅうぶんだ。たのもしいパートナー、いや、どうしだった…だれよりも、おまえにたいするいじょうな…しゅうちゃくしん…たのもしかったよ…わたしいがいにいたのだよ…おまえをにくむじんぶつが…にくしみをくらうがいい！死ね！エックス！
Sigma: I’m right here. I have no intention of running or hiding…the truth is, this time I had quite the good partner…he supported me in many ways. Apparently, in the past, he created an endless amount of robots…and presented me the body I reveal to you now. You arrived very early, so it’s not quite complete, but…well, it should be more than enough. He was a reliable partner – no, friend…he was more obsessed with you than anyone I’ve ever seen…yes, he was truly dependable. It was nice knowing there was someone who hated you as much as me…now feel our hatred! Die, X!
- Mega Man X5 / Rockman X5
[22]
Sigma: Hee hee hee hee. Calm down. I'm here... Let me tell you about an old man I met... He told me that you are the strongest in the universe... Tell me. Who is this old man?
Zero: How should I know? I don't know such a person.
Sigma: You must know him. Don't tell me you've never met him in your dreams.
Zero: I don't...know him...
Sigma: He seems very interested in you,...as if he was your own father!
シグマ: クククッ、あわてるな…近くにいるぞ…なあ、ゼロよ…あるろうじんとであってな…そのろうじんはいってたぞ、ゼロは地上最強だと…あのろうじんはだれなんだ？
ゼロ: …しらん、そんなヤツ。
シグマ: おまえはよくしっているはず。…ユメであうだろ？
ゼロ: しらない…しらない、そんなヤツは。
シグマ: おまえのこと…かなり、いれこんでいたぞ…まるで、うみのおやのようになーっ！
Sigma: Heheheh, don’t get too worked up…I’m close…hey, Zero…so I met this old man…and that old man told me that you were the world’s strongest…who is that old man?
Zero: …no idea who that is.
Sigma: You should know him quite well. …you meet him in your dreams, don’t you?
Zero: I don’t know…I don’t know anyone like that.
Sigma: He seems to know quite a lot about you…almost like a father!
- Mega Man X5 / Rockman X5
[23]
Sigma: I met an old man who knows a lot about you... He told me an interesting story. He told me that you are something far greater than what you appear to be... On his advice, I scattered the Virus so that it could infiltrate you, but you haven't shown any signs of waking up...
シグマ: おまえのことにやたらくわしいろうじんがいてな…いまのゼロは、ほんもののゼロではない…そんなオモシロイことをいうのだよ…そのろうじんのすすめで…ウィルスを地球とコロニーに、ばらまいて…おまえの体にあびせたのにおまえはめをさまさない…
Sigma: There is an old gentlemen who knows so much about you…and he says the most interesting things…like, that the Zero we know and love is not really the “real” Zero…and so, as per his suggestion, I scattered the virus across the Earth and the colony…I showered your body with it and you still won’t awaken…
- Mega Man X5 / Rockman X5
[24]
過去の記憶をほとんど失っているゼロ。しかし、ときにDr.ワイリーに似た人物を夢で見るようだ。また、ゼロの体内には、生まれながらにしてΣ（シグマ）ウイルスが組み込まれているという。はたして、誰と戦うために彼は造られたのか？決して正義のためとは思えないのだが…
Zero’s lost most of his memories of the past. He sometimes seems to see someone who looks like Dr. Wily in his dreams. Also, it’s said that Zero has the Sigma Virus installed on him since he was born. What kind of battles is he fated to have? It feels unlike that he’s supposed to fight for the sake of “justice”...
- Rockman Perfect Memories
[25]
Sigma: I've conducted thorough research, and produced a tremendous result. I wanted to find out what Zero truly is... and scatter the Virus all over the earth to purify his body... But the amount of the virus was insufficient. So I used the rundown colony......making it a virus colony and let it land on the earth. You know the outcome, don't you?
シグマ: あれから、おまえたちをいろいろと研究してな…すばらしいじじつがわかったのだよ。…どうしてもゼロのしんのすがたがみたくてな…ウィルスを地上にばらまき、ヤツの体をきよめたのだが……ウィルスのりょうがたりなかった。そこであのオンボロのコロニーを…ウィルスコロニーとして地球とドッキングさせた。けっかは、しってのとおりだ
Sigma: I’ve done all sorts of research into you two over the years…and learned a magnificent truth. …I wanted to see Zero’s true form more than anything…so I spread the virus across the Earth, and purified his body. However…it wasn’t enough. So I took that shabby old colony, turned it into a virus colony and…”docked” it to Earth. The result was exactly what I knew it to be.
- Mega Man X5 / Rockman X5
[26]
Shadow Devil
- Compendium of Rockman X, page 84
[27]
Rangda Bangda W
-Rockman X5 kanzen kouryaku guide, page 92
[28]
Final Sigma W
- Rockman X5 kanzen kouryakubon, page 129
[29]
Alia: ...This is exactly the same reading... ...Should we call this the Zero Virus? The scraps of the Colony Virus and the Sigma Virus combined together...? ...I wonder what's going to happen...
- Mega Man X5
[30]
Alia: A new virus...? Out of the frying pan into the fire... For the moment, we've named it the Zero Virus...
- Mega Man X5
[31]
???: ...Get up... ...Wake up now... ...Do you forget... what you should do? ...Destroy it now... ...You can do it! ...You're the best of all my works... ...Wake up…
- Mega Man X5
[32]
6) What happened to Dr. Wily in Rockman X series? Are Dr. Wily and Dr. Weil the same person? Were they ever supposed to be?
KI: A large amount of time has passed between the classic series and Mega Man X. Dr. Wily had died in the interim but was brought back by the virus. Dr. Wily and Weil are not the same person. It is ironic though, because Dr. Wily created Zero, and Dr. Weil used Zero, but ultimately it was a copy of Zero's original body with a different mind that defeated him.
[33]
Dr. Wily --> ZERO Project - (died same time as completed) -> ZERO
Dr. Wily --> Robot Virus Project - (died midway) -> Incomplete - (infected at lab) -> ZERO
[34]
ゼロにΣ（シグマ）ウイルスを組み込んだのは、おそらく彼だろう
It was probably him the one who installed the Sigma Virus on Zero.
- Rockman Perfect Memories
[35]
Relationship with the Sigma Virus:
The Sigma Virus turns infected Repliroids into Irregulars. But out of all Repliroids, Zero doesn’t only not get damaged by the virus, he also reported that his power increases during the colony fall incident. That shows that there’s a very intimate connection between Zero and the virus, above normal.
Maybe the person who made Zero and the person who made the Sigma Virus are the same subject…
Caption (top image): it’d seem that Zero himself was shocked that the virus didn’t damage him
Caption (bottom image): Lifesaver tells Signas about Zero’s abnormality
- Compendium of Rockman X
[36]
"I get a lot of people asking me if Serges is Wily. I always give them the same answer, 'He might be... he might not be.' (laughs) I think this is one of those things that is best left without an official comment. As creators, one of the fun things we get to do is plant seeds of imagination in our players and let them come to their own conclusions." (Inafune)
- Mega Man X Official Complete Works, page 23
- Mega Man & Mega Man X Official Complete Works MM25, page 167
[37]
Systems Offline (ZERO 011)
His reddened field of vision bled away into darkness. It was only after he realized his grave sins that the cloud of destructive impulses cleared from his mind.
- TEPPEN
[38]
Possessing Malice (COR 177)
A horrifying malaise, it creeps in like a virus, utterly changing the host's very thoughts.
- TEPPEN
[39]
Brainwashed (COR 135)
The strange data etched into his mind rewrites his memories, turning peace into war and friend into foe.
- TEPPEN
[40]
Alia: It's obvious that Sigma's involved, but things are bound to be different this time. It doesn't seem as if he's controlling these new Mavericks like puppets. They all seem to... BE him…
- Mega Man X8
[41]
Sigma: I shall allow you to call me by that name, for I am indeed Sigma.
- Mega Man X8
[42]
Zero: Well, don't let it get to you. Just becoming Sigma could hardly be called evolution.
- Mega Man X8
[43]
Sigma: Yes, prototype... My children. The new generation Reploids born of the Jakob Project all bear copy chips containing my personal data. And now, the final phase of that project begins! You shall be destroyed!
- Mega Man X8
[44]
Lumine: The copy chips we new generation Reploids possess... They were derived from data from hundreds of old model Reploids. That means, of course, that Sigma was also included in the mix. Do you understand what I'm getting at here?
- Mega Man X8
[45]
[45]
4. The Secrets of Zero's Body and Abilities
He possesses abilities no less amazing than X's, and with just as many mysteries surrounding them!
Zero self-destructed in "Rockman X", only to be revived by Sagesse in "X2". (That's the reason for the design changes around his shoulder area and such.) His power source is solar energy like X, while his body material is comprised of a Titanium Z alloy, and is equipped with peculiar mechanisms called the Z-brain (the head lens) and the Z-heart (the chest lens), which conceal an unknown power.
- Rockman X4 Saikyou Daizukan, page 77
(translated by marshmallow man)
[46]
Sagesse
A member of the Counter Hunter/s. From the message he gives when defeated by X, there is also a theory that asks if he could be Wily.
Caption: These remarks insinuate some kind of likely antagonism with Dr. Right.
- Compendium of Rockman X, page 31
(translated by Sb20)
Light put himself in cyberspace (which means the upgrade capsules are direct links to it) while Wily went with a more physical approach, though the various viruses at least are a bit more metaphysical... fun details about which to speculate.
ReplyDeleteX6 kinda portrayed it as technobiological, didn't it?
DeleteI think they're definitely just Wily himself in new robotic vessels, honestly. If it was the virus and only the virus, everything including Sigma (especially Sigma, actually) would have been at risk of being overwritten. Seems like he picks very specific vessels and mostly just bides his time/operates from behind the scenes.
ReplyDeleteNot sure if X9 will remember this subplot at all though, considering this is more or less the realm only hardcore X fans would know of lol. X7 and 8 didn't touch on it at all. They didn't even remember Dynamo!
to be fair with the dynamo complaint, outside of causing the colony to crash(which now that i think about it could've been left to a rebuilt vile since for being the last game originally he made no appearance at all.) dynamo really isn't that integral to the series story.
Deletei always took it that the virus in sigma was wily's spirit possessing him after he punched zero's helmet(which i always took as a restrain bolt that kept him from leaving the base if he woke up early and would explain the differences in sigma's personality in the snes games & playstation games/maverick hunter x.) as mavericks existed before x & zero just as the term for malfunctioning robots than being controlled by sigma.
i always thought that wily just uploaded his conscious into the wily virus like how dr. light did with the light capsules(with the x-hunters and isoc being made by sigma for wily to continue his plans in case sigma died before his plan was finished.) with my headcanon being the nightmare in x6 was actually a last attempt by wily to control zero with a recreation of the zero virus(since it created a rip into cyberspace in x5 like how the nightmare messed with reality.)with nightmare zero actually intended to be the dispersing remnants of his awakened form in x5(if the game wasn't rushed instead of the "hid myself"mess.) as isoc along with having interest in zero also calls him a robot(the x series calls robots reploids due to them having a basis from x's design.)and with isoc's lifeless body at the end i took it that wily left for good seeing that zero was strong and capable on his own without his help.(and likely feeling content/some form of fatherly pride to zero that he got some superiority over dr. light even if their last creations are friends and probably would be happier knowing that zero technically outlives x in the future.)
i don't think the previous story will be completely forgotten in x9 as outside adapting the elf wars(which i want x9 to be since even though not canon debatable the archie comics show axel helping x & zero fight dr. weil possessing zeros body.would be even cooler seeing alia,palette & layer help as well or even have command mission characters integrated into the plot.:3) that's the only real plot point to form an x9 out of.(in x8 the new generation reploid's data allows them access to not only other reploids data but resets them to before the wily virus showed up when they could allow themselves to become maverick only now at will like overusing a medical drug.)though yeah i am curious as to what that glowing shard in axels head would turn out to be.?(maybe the piece of zero's helmet that contains the source code for the wily virus but they briefly have to fight axel before finding out about the cure hidden in zero to form the mother elf with.)
Stuff like this really makes me wish they would make a full-on Mega Man X anime (not just an OVA like Day of Sigma).
ReplyDeleteSeems to me like this is the most likely hypothesis. The virus holds Willy's will and memories and it's capable of creating virtual clones of him in the bodies of able reploids.
ReplyDeleteAfter all it does happen again in Megaman ZX with the W model and Weil's memories that corrupt the antagonists.
The problem with assuming Wily is alive in the X series is that to get to that point you have to ignore the story of the games, developer interviews--specifically Inafune's word of god about Zero's profile, as well as characters themselves.
ReplyDeleteThere's nothing that's ever been said about whether or not X's history as a creation of Dr. Light is known to the world. Serges, as pointed out by XLC2, has great intellect but isn't a fighter, and as part of the Counter Hunters his role was undoubtedly about collecting data on X, as well as on Zero since the Counter Hunters had come into possession of his parts. I'd say the "defeated again by Light's robot" part of his japanese dialogue was a script oversight, if only because of "again" when it might be the first time the player fights him in a run.
The problem afterwards is in X5, where if you are to consider the flowchart as well as Inafune's statement about Zero's profile... Sigma and Wily both completely, and catastrophically miss the purpose of Zero's virus by trying to infect him with more of it, as the flowchart indicates that the virus is a control program that overflows his evil meter so far it rolls over into hero territory. I also read Sigma as being driven mad throughout all of X5's story, since he spends a majority of his time laughing and cackling.
As for Isoc's Wily status... While we have no definite origin for the Zero Nightmares in X6, I'm pretty certain that Isoc was the one that created them, as Gate expresses mild irritation at Isoc's fascination with Zero. To say that Isoc is Wily though is to ignore that X6's entire story involves 8 mavericks that were revived from the dead, and who's to say that Zero wasn't resurrected along the same processes?
Assumptions do not make plot points, people.
I don't see any assumtons. breadcrumbs are all there.
DeleteThe assumption is that Wily is alive in the X series in any capacity beyond Zero's memories.
DeleteCompendium of RockmanX, page 31, says "there is a theory that Serges is Wily" and that Serges' parting words imply a "feud" with Dr. Right.
DeleteNo assumption is made in the article. Everything is cited. Please review the references if you must.
I have reviewed them. All of them. It remains assumption because this theory is considered canon, and it is assumed that every other alleged instance of Wily being active in the X series is, itself, also canon.
DeleteThere was another theory that was once considered canon and had significant backing evidence from moments in X4's story and the bad ending path in X5 along with cherry picked quotes from barely translated guidebooks and an occasional developer comment. It was called the "Cataclysm theory", and it suggested that the reason why the classic series characters were not present in the X series was because Zero had killed them all. Now, you can bring up Inafune's "it's not in his profile" response from the Inafune Answers Your Questions post on Capcom Unity, but it should stand that it was only considered non-canon with that post.
Bizarre considering that the origin of THAT theory was from a sprite comic author.
Inafune: "Dr. Wily had died in the interim but was brought back by the virus."[32]
DeleteAriga: “During the X series, a Repliroid with Wily's memories, "Serges", appears in X2.”[0]
These are stated facts. They are not assumptions. Because of that, they serve as our baseline for interpreting X2, X5 and X6.
Your Inafune hate boner is showing, door to the afterlife is right outside.
DeleteInafune, from my research, frequently speaks in metaphors. "Brought back by the virus" could mean anything from being literal, to the virus being referred to as a successor as far as role in the story goes. Or, point here... Don't take his word literally, you look like X6's translation when you do.
DeleteAriga shouldn't be considered a reliable source of information since he's third party to Capcom, and he's only ever done illustrations as far as X and company are concerned. All he was doing was just reciting something that was already speculated about.
But go ahead, assume metaphor is literal fact while you're assuming a theory is canon.
What's more ridiculous is to assume he's using a metaphor. Occam's razor, dude.
DeleteCareful, might cut yourself with that razor.
DeleteWhen Inafune made his final post in one of his personal blogs, maintained until his actual departure from Capcom in November 2010... Well, if you're confident you can you can interpret them accurately, Anon, go right ahead:
One post has him describing himself as the sun that brings light to the village, guiding the villagers. Also that he wishes he could be one of those villagers, but that he cannot because they are lost without his light.
His final post has him talking about caged birds, why some birds may need to be caged, and how he'll be a caged bird no longer and closing with, I quote, "I will fly."
Of course, I should accept that Inafune is literally a sun god who takes the form of a bird, because there's no way one should ever assume he's speaking metaphorically. Occam's razor, after all.
Sun god? No. Mighty 9 tails?
DeleteMaaaaaaybe
I'm yet another anon and comparing him explicitly being metaphorical versus one quote where you assume he isn't is a really weak argument. Also tone down the attitude is making you look irrational.
Delete*where you assume he is
DeleteFusionArmor, no duh that blog post is metaphorical. It's clearly not meant to be taken literally. Occam's Razor suggests that the simplest explanation is the correct one, and thus as it would be simpler to read the blog as a metaphor it should be interpreted as such. The quote regarding Wily's revival doesn't have any reason in of itself to be assumed to be metaphor, so Occam's Razor supports a more literal interpretation. Considering the answer that we're given is much more direct, it's hard to see it any other way unless you're actively trying to make it fit your point. I'm going to be honest, I don't think that Anon is the one that needs to worry about that razor.
DeleteProblem with invoking Occam's Razor is that it is often used as a defense against any other line of thinking on a particular subject.
DeleteIs the Wily theory really that simple that there is no other explanation?
Or is said theory only simple to accept because someone's already put it together and you can just point at it?
The Wily theory is anything but simple, much less direct, because it all relies on "it feels right" levels of evidence. Isolated lines of character dialogue, isolated character profile blurbs, blurbs about bosses and enemies that just happen to have "W" in their names, snipped out interview quotes, and even things such as flavor text from TEPPEN cards of all things are in the list of cited references. Each is stripped away from their respective contexts.
Do I have a competitive theory? Yes. Wily isn't in the X series in any fashion beyond Zero's memory. I dare to suggest that Sagesse and Isoc are their own characters with their own motivations (killing X and analyzing Zero, respectively) and that Sigma was driven insane by his virus in X5 that notably drove reploids insane.
Besides, in both cases, Inti Creates never says anything about Wily and we love to consider it's the MMZOCW's on the X series to be simultaneously canon to the games themselves.
"Old Man" (who is identified as Zero's father) is said to have given Sigma his toughest body yet: "Final Sigma W".
DeleteWhy even say this when there is no actual Wily? Where does the Shadow "Devil" come from? What about the Zero Virus?
Likewise... Serges restoring and upgrading Zero when neither Cain, Douglas, nor Gate could analyze his inner workings. Isoc knowing that same Zero inside out. Serges' antagonism with Dr. Light. Isoc's obsession and sudden Erasure. Those are not "isolated" lines. Instead, even The Compendium of Rockman X questions Serges and Isoc's true identity.
The Wily connection exists, no doubt. It's only a question of "how".
Sigma's goal all throughout X5 is to "awaken" Zero, since he remarks on his failure to achieve that if you fight him as Zero. One thing that X5 does mention is that the combination of the Colony and Sigma Viruses creates the "ZERO SPACE", where virus-colored phantoms of Zero appear, as well as past enemies. If Sigma had discovered a ton of old Wily data, and created this space with the ability to literally manifest things on the fly, that would explain Rangda Bangda W (never a Wily creation) the giant Wily logo in the background, the Shadow Devil, and Final Sigma W.
DeleteBut as for the impossible-to-analyze bit, X was analyzed far enough to be able to be the effective starting point for all Reploids, and by X6, Alia was able to restore the Falcon Armor, albeit imperfectly. As well, the entire starting point of X6's story on the villain's side starts with Gate unlocking power from Zero's DNA and creating the Nightmares alongside Isoc, and that includes the Zero Nightmares whose dialogue is pretty much ALL fragments of Zero.
The Counter Hunters were supposedly already on their way to rebuilding Zero altogether, but had trouble with a "control circuit". Since the whole DNA concept wasn't established until Soul Eraser, we can either say that the "control circuit" is a different part of Zero, or that it's the same thing as DNA. Whatever the case, Alia being able to restore X's Falcon Armor and Gate unlocking power from Zero's DNA suggests that they aren't as impossible to analyze as previously stated.
I think it's also worth noting that in the real world, Capcom notably act coy about confirming any Wily-related details in the X series. One of the two Rockman X4 guides, while talking about Zero's scrapped Ultimate Armor, stops just shy of confirming that Dr. Wily created him, even though that's a very obvious and easy to make conclusion given X4's story as well as Bass's teaser for X4 ending in The Power Fighters.
If you want to propose an alternate hypothesis to the Zero Space phenomenon, you need evidence to support your conclusion. You can't just appeal to ignorance in a counterpoint. The properties of Zero Space neither confirm nor deny Sigma's ability to manipulate it. On the other hand, Sigma not just talks at length about his elderly partner, but he also knows that Zero has seen this "old man" in his dreams. This is extremely specific knowledge, so unless Sigma can somehow read minds, he could only have learned this from someone who literally knows Zero inside out.
DeleteIn the bad ending of X5, Douglas states the bodies of X and Zero are difficult to repair because they're "still a mystery." There is evidence of this in the game, as either X loses the Fourth Armor or Zero loses the Z-Buster due to Sigma's initial attack. Even Gate claims he couldn't analyze Zero's DNA completely, which could explain Zero Nightmare's erratic behavior. We've also seen an inferior copy of Zero in X2, proving that he can't be easily repaired—let alone rebuilt—by just anyone.
Besides, there are official sources confirming that Dr. Wily is Zero's creator, such as the Inafune interview at Capcom Unity, the Robot Master Field Guide and Capcom's 30th Anniversary Encyclopedia. Inafune also confirmed in MMXOCW/MM25 that the Wily connection was always part of the plan, which is supported by concept art in the same book. To say nothing of the numerous references listed in Zan's article.
Well i would say, Inafune wanted a "final combat" of Zero vs Dr.Wily from the beginning. but because in the end, he needed to make X as we know, that's why he tried to jump this combat to Megaman Zero. Dr Weil, in some of the concept arts looked a lot to Wily. I'm sure that was the original plan but something happened
ReplyDeleteX6, for sure, something not really planned by him.
maybe one day we have a Reboot or someone in charge will connect the dots right. now more than ever, because Sigma is dead and well we know something is inside of Axl.
There's something unnerving about the thought of Zero being the one to finally kill Wily. I know Wily is a bad guy but I associate him with quirkiness and being pretty lighthearted, he's super Saturday morning cartoony. By the time of the Zero series those games were tackling pretty dark themes in a blunt way, Weil by the end of it was so monstrous and irredeemable that I just can't imagine Wily in his place merging with machine and getting slaughtered by Zero. It creeps me out just to think about it.
Deletedid the concept of wily being a ghost ever show up again in the zero series.(you think that would be a running plot point that,even though the maverick/sigma virus is long gone wily would try one more attempt to control zero which i think is what x6 tried to do with the nightmare and isoc only for it to be muddled from how rushed it was.)
DeleteI would add that Sigma and Wily were likely sharing the final Sigma W body. The attacks are similar, it is called Final Sigma W, he said 'feel our combined rage, and die', but most of all, the skull remnants of Final Sigma W's head have the skull motif, and it was then called ?? and not Sigma, and ?? says 'drop dead'. ?? is no doubt Wily. Maybe one eye of the skull being lit red while the other was gone was meant to symbolize Sigma being mostly dead at that moment while Wily was active in the remnant still. Also Wily Avatars all seem to have the reddest of eyes and hard to see a pupil, maybe representing evil possession. Wily is always called ?? when not possessing an avatar body made for him, just as he left Isoc's body and was called ??, because he is integrated into the virus and can thus act like a ghost.
ReplyDeleteI have known this and caught onto it ever since X4 when he entered Zero's dreams ghost style. Well, at the time of X4, I thought he was just a ghost vs embedded into part of the virus, maybe a different strain than the Sigma virus, the more original strain before transferring to Sigma, and perhaps Wily wanted a punch pf the virus to go into Sigma, so while Wily was probably possessing Zero in the cave, made him glitch so Sigma could punch the energen crystal to transfer it easily to Sigma. I would argue that if Zero goes maverick in X5, it is Wily possessing him. X saying get out of Zero, whatever you are, claiming to feel an evil greater than Sigma, and him not talking like Zero at that moment.
So because wily is integrated into the virus, which I have known a while now, that means he either gets erased like Sigma did in X8, sometime after X8 in another battle if he is lacking a viral self to regenerate, which sigma in that demon body seemed to lack as most was transferred to Lumine and the others (solid form as a tentacle in Lumine's case), or wily gets truly erased when the Mother Elf erases the virus before the Elf wars. I'm guessing the latter. Who knows, maybe X finds out or already knows to a degree that Wily's consciousness is in the virus somewhere.
taht's actually something i always thought with the wily virus that it had dr. wily's spirit like dr light's was in the light capsules.i don't think the new generation reploids have the option to become wily but more are put back to factory conditions to the term maverick originally had(which is a malfunction in reploids due to not being given the same diagnostics as x and mass producing his design with future games changing it to being controlled by wily/sigma/lumine.) with the option of choosing to become maverick at will.(with lumines uprising toward sigma as the final boss it's implied somewhat that sigma tried to control lumine but due to the new generation reploids ability to change data and resist control they made sigma outdated and were able to control him as he basically was a shell controlled by wily's will.)
Deletei always took it that in x4 the w on zero's helmet was a restraint(that kept him from leaving the lab if he woke up early.)that after being punched by sigma allowed him to control sigma by his spirit passing to him and controlling his actions.(which would explain sigma's motivation changing from using zero & x's potential to cause reploid evolution without human interference in the snes games,x8 and maverick hunter x to destroying both human and reploids in the playstation games.)
in x5 the zero virus was made by wily telling sigma the knowledge of zero's code that sigma only had a basic part of,with awakened zero being zero's complete code in a similar state to x4 only under wily's full control(with the capsules in the background of the sigma fight possibly being taken from dr. light and wily's labs to fully get the schematics for them.)with the sigma head shooting x and zero being wily's spirit taking control of the wreckage to get the last laugh.(wily would be spiteful enough to do that since all the trouble in the megaman series was almost all started by his jealousy of dr. light/ambition to get some acknowledgement for his genius going to far.makes me wonder what the zero series wouldve done with this plot point if it went in it's original direction also kinda makes him one of the more threatening villains of capcom with his legacy as not even m. bison has done damage that lasted for centuries and nearly wipe humans out.)
in x6 isoc calls zero a robot and i headcanon that with nightmare zero it's actually the real zero controlled by the nightmare(with the nightmare/sigma's body being a attempted recreation of the zero virus from the remains gate found since both can mess with reality or at least cyberspace.) as a last resort by wily to control him using isoc as a body(likely created by sigma during x5 as a way to continue his ambition if sigma died like the x hunters.) with isoc's lifeless body being dr. wily leaving for good.(as we don't see him in x7,x8 or the zero series i take it that dr. wily realized zero was strong without his help and with contentat some superiority over dr, light/fatherly pride he left zero to his own path.)
I should have used my name 'Gary' above as I'm the original poser. Anyways, I have done some research on it a while ago and Capcom (someone said it may have been Rockman X, complete works), changed the fight in the cave to be the virus slowly leaking out of Zero's capsule (which is why maverick outbreaks happened before Zero's discovery), and the damage that Zero and Sigma sustained made them infected (I'm pretty sure Zero was already infected a certain amount though) but an excess of the virus made Zero good and Sigma evil, and because Sigma was immune to viruses, the virus had to evolve to suit Sigma. The glitch was part of the reason the virus was created because Zero was out of control, and had to be sealed away in 20XX by wily. Virus exists also to make Zero more powerful, to be a medium for Wily's consciousness to persists, to make robots go crazy and cause chaos or do Wily's, and now also Sigma's bidding.
DeleteAnyways, I see it as the fight in the cave,, a big chunk of the virus was in Zero too, and that went into Sigma, but Wily's consciousness stayed in Zero off and on, but Sigma and Wily's consciousnesses are separate yet embedded into the virus. In many games, Wily may have had no involvement at all, and that was just Sigma, though indirectly, it is connected to Wily because of Zero and the virus creation. But Wily is only involved in X2, X5, and X6 so far, most likely.
Nightmare Zero was created by Gate and/or Isoc as a distraction so they could spread the nightmare using false investigators, and they announced the nightmare and pretended to be investigators to draw attention away from them being behind it so they could freely go about spreading it and infecting reploids, while having reploids go into those areas to get them infected, as the plot in X6 was to control reploids all over the earth using High Max and the nightmare, much like Omega and the dark elf, but of course Isoc (Wily) pulling Gate's strings to a high degree. sigma wasn't doing anything. He was not completely dead, but gate built him a body as a last resort, but maybe wily put that into his mind to do so, even building Zero a new body, most likely. wily creating the nightmare, High Max, Zero again, and bringing back a body for Sigma. Sigma did not die, but originally before X6, it was planned he would in X5, though the virus would still live on, hence mavericks 3 years later.
In fact, I would say that the bad ending of X5 is when the virus is completely destroyed and Wily with it because the virus was used up when zero Went maverick completely and with the Sigma being killed, so Sigma being killed and Zero completely destroyed too, Wily cold not come back, just like sigma could not as the virus is gone. The full force of the colony shattered continents (shown on the global map), X having Zero's memories erased by light and wanting to crate Elysium. So the bad ending leading into the Legends series, and good ending into Zero series originally. It was changed though so that all 5 series are canon (classic into X, into Zero, into ZX, and far later, into Legend, with perhaps multiple series in between ZX and Legends).
continued...
DeleteAs for X8, the virus no doubt made the new gen reploids turn evil, so their immunity is not 100%, and going maverick at will, I take it to mean allow the virus to take increased or total control. Sigma's goal was to have new gen reploids come about but with his DNA and virus embedded, and maybe Sigma knew and planned for himself to die to an extent, as he told X, it will all be over soon and we will never have to meet again. I guess the new gen reploids awakening means with sigma dead, the DNA and virus can awaken in them. Hard to know what awakening even means here. sigma dying because he gave most of his viral self to Lumine (highly concentrated since it took the form of a solid purple tentacle) and into the new gen reploids, spreading himself thin and intentionally knowing if he was defeated there, it would be the end. I guess he was surprised they could beat his very powerful form there though going all out, based on his last words. Nothing do with Wily though as I think he has nothing to do with X8, though sigma's consciousness has been deleted from the virus, Wily is somewhere in existence embedded into the virus, or possibly just the maverick strain, like Zero carrying it and spreading it around all those years, but I doubt that is the Sigma virus in Zero, but the more original strain instead, though the Sigma virus lives one with his DNA but the mind deleted.
Wily could still come back though as long as the virus in some form exists.
I thought Zero 1 originally took off from X5's bad ending because Light deleting part of X's memories is what drove him to insanity and becoming the antagonist in the earlier version of the story. Although I'm not sure if the change from X to copy X being the bad guy was explicitly said to take really late or early on. Legends taking place after Zero while still being from the bad ending of X5. (This part is speculation) I think X wasn't supposed to die at the end of Zero 1, but rather he's given a second chance when he is almost dead and his consciousness is transferred to a new body. Light probably tampers with his mind again so he is more joyful this time around. This body is the original incarnation of Trigger and what leads to the events of pre-Legends. Yes I'm saying X is Trigger.
Deletei would like for an x9 to go into the elf wars and maybe have x and zero have a final meeting with dr. light and wily's spirit forms.(the drs. living on through the light capsules/wily virus respectively was my favorite story point of the x series along with alia's backstory/the navigators in general/iris and with x8 hinting that sigma may be gone for good i think it would be interesting to see wily in his imprinted spirit form try to cause havoc with axel/the new generation reploids and the maverick hunters developing a cure to get rid of the wily virus for good creating the mother elf.:3)
DeleteNah, I'm sure the bad ending of X5 was supposed to go into Legends. X said he wanted to create Elysium. Neo Arcadia is completely different and he said nothing about Neo Arcadia. If it was the same thing, they would have called Neo Arcadia Elysium. I think it is obvious Capcom originally intended on branching timelines from that point, then retconned that to all be canon in one timeline.
DeleteAlso Light removed his painful memories in the bad ending. Keeping them may cause an averse effect, and even in X7, Zero had a bad dream of X going mad because he keeps fighting against Mavericks and getting desensitized. That long period of fighting mavericks would desensitize X making him bad, but they changed it to copy X and the real X still ended up being desensitized, but not to the bad extreme as he said since Zero disappeared, he was fighting and uncountable number of fighting maverick for nearly 100 years, so painful, and the worst part is he discovered he no longer cared.
Also the land mass is shattered if we go the bad route in X5, which would explain all the islands littering the world with very few big continents and craters on the map selection screen on Legends 2. Also Legends 2 and MMX5 were made around the same time. Though I imagine it took centuries or more for most of the land masses to sink on top of global warming and wars, so buildings that later became elder system ruins, some under the ocean, happened, and master system ruins later also had some of them submerged. So in that timeline, I can imagine X existed a very long time before dying, probably another war occurring with elder system machines and reploids tired of catering to the humans hiding away underground, and so the remaining humans escaping on the orbital elevator connected to Elysium at the time, then they destroyed that elevator to prevent hostiles from easily following them (research shows me the Rockman DASH Big 5 Island Adventure! game at the end ha a broken orbital elevator saying 'heaven' at its base (Elysium).
As for X9 being Elf wars. I doubt that any more than classic MM games showing Zero and Megaman himself being shut down in whatever final game they create. Still too far after X8 and too soon to be in X9. I see X9 being more battles with new gen reploids or just something all new. After all, they still existed even if copy chips stopped being made legally for a while, and I'm sure many were illegally still produced, like Redips (command mission may not be canon though), and years later, they started up production again. Like Lumine said to Axl, he clearly didn't have grasp of the situation.
A friend of mine theorized that the Wily that appears in the X series might have been an AI copy of Wily similar to Light's hologram and that he was ironically accidentally corrupted by the virus he was making. Which was why he supported human genocide by helping Sigma and even an insane Gate even though he was never showed to be anything like that in the Classic series. It would totally be in character of Wily for that to happen too, since he always has this "One step forward and two steps backwards" thing going for him lol.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the theory that Zero himself was meant to be a body for Wily and that the W Virus was his memories and malice at the time? The theory states that when Sigma punched the W he got infected and went full on insane as we know, could be the malice of Wily causing that. And as a result Zero ended up being Wily's chance at redemption. The thing with Serges and Isoc makes just as much sense if we look at it another way. They're copies of his memories without any influence towards good continuing his work as a mad scientist, like the Wily Bots were as the theory also states something overlooked for years. The fact Wily himself might be dead and not just for 100 years from the Classic Era but literally dead during that Era. That from MM4 onward Wily was really his Wily Bots with his most recent memories, adapting to their losses. The real Wily never survived the endgame of MM3 crushed to death by that boulder or brick slab.
ReplyDeleteThis theory if true would be very ironic as it means Wily befriended X, became a hero, redeemed himself without anyone ever knowing and eventually turned things around where he must fight an evil X copy and his successor in evil Wile in a very ironic turn of events and parallels.
The final part made me think... As Wily had some copies of himself, as seen in MM3, MM10 and other games, what if he built quite a few more over the years (like Dr. Doom's Doom Bots), Serges and Isoc being survivors from that era? Their appearance could have changed when doing upgrades to their old bodies (or to hide their identity, or both)? After Zero "died" in X1 (and later X5), Serges (and later Isoc) decided to go out of the shadows to fix him, which resulted in Serges meeting Sigma and teaming up?
ReplyDeleteI always thought both Light and Wily somehow made Cyber-Elf copies of themselves, which Light's controlling the capsules and Wily's traveling through the Maverick Virus.
ReplyDelete